Mesmer PvE changes

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Mesmer PvE changes

Post by SAL on Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:27 am

Regina Buenaobra wrote:(From HERE) Don't worry, folks. Smile Live Team is working on a play balance update. As before, we will give you all a preview before the changes are in the game. Smile We plan to have this preview ready for you to check out relatively soon (TM)--i.e. in the next week or two. But just to give you a small teaser, we're working on some changes to Mesmers in PvE. So stay tuned. Smile
I think Mesmers need a PvE buff in general, that's for sure. But they also need to be able to fill a unique spot in a PvE team. With that said, here's what I'm hoping they do with Mesmers in PvE:

Inspiration: Make some of the skills that drain energy from an enemy transfer it to the team. This would give the mesmer a "battery" position, but it would be different from the Necromancer's. The Necromancer is able to target single allies and give them an energy regen. The Mesmer, alternatively, could be spiking the whole team with a solid amount of energy gain (rather than a regen bonus), but it would require targeting an enemy rather than an ally to do so.

Domination/Illusion: This doesn't need as drastic a change as Inspiration, but it would help to give some more of their skills an area-effect target in PvE (ie. make them affect "target and all adjacent enemies"). It would be nice if Mesmers could finally build a nice PvE area-effect build without having to rely so much on title skills.

Fast Casting: Although not really necessary, a nice touch to this attribute in PvE might be to have it lengthen the duration of hexes. Something like a 2% increase in hex duration per attribute point could be really useful without making it too overpowered.

(Also posted on GW Guru HERE)


Last edited by Arcana on Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:16 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by Valynn Lionhart on Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:58 pm

All sounds great, and I agree! I hope A-net thinks like this about buffing Mesmers as well.

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:46 pm

I think due to the nature of the beast and some hold overs from the time before some skills diverged into pve and pvp vertions that we are either in for some serious diverances To bring Mesmers up to speed in pve, or the problem will remain. In the past A net has atempted to compensate with some token skills some of these include Vitions of Regret and Cry of Pain. Each brought mesmers back into validity for a time but was too overpowered in its own right. In the case of Cry there is a domination skill that dose a littel under HALF that damage already. Why not boost the some of the existing skills by 20% in pve. As mentioned ealyier AoE is a serious issue for mesmers they are devistating agist idivigual oponents and are great on bosses but are saddly lacking when it comes to fighting large groups.

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by SAL on Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:40 am

Azara Molydeus - PoP wrote:Why not boost the some of the existing skills by 20% in pve. As mentioned ealyier AoE is a serious issue for mesmers they are devistating agist idivigual oponents and are great on bosses but are saddly lacking when it comes to fighting large groups.

Their skills don't really need much of a damage boost, in my opinion. They just need to add in the "target and all adjacent enemies" tag to some more of them. Below is the best I've come up with for AoE Mesmering (also posted it HERE). It's actually quite good, being generally comparable to a Spiteful Spirit Necromancer in terms of functionality and overall damage output. But as far as I see it, this is really the only decent AoE option a pure Mesmer build has. I'd like to see some more viable options than just this, especially since this one relies so heavily on title skills.

Mesmer Area Hexer: OQhkAkC8QGOUbJRgbTnnN4FDUQOA
- Attributes (after equipment): Domination: 16, Fast Casting: 10, Inspiration: 10
- Skills: Technobabble, Drain Enchantment, Visions of Regret, Ether Nightmare, Cry of Pain, Flesh of my Flesh, Energy Tap, Cry of Frustration

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by Guest on Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:18 am

Vor dose good damge when it dose damage but is hinderd by a low duration and the fact that monsters are not exactly skill spamers in the same way that people are i have used it on some mosters ( aflicted rits are among the worst ) and it might kick once. If you conpare it to remotly similar skills it comes out as infirior spitefull spirt for instsance dose about 1/3 the damage and lasts twice as long but ultamitly dose more damage in a 10 second segment becuse of the atack clause. As its set up now i think i would be better served by running a build made of mostly non mesmer skills in pve. Enegy surge is a neither good elite for aoe from mesmers but once agin slow rechage and very few other aoe skils to back it up mean that is while debilitating for a short period of time in nomral mode pve is not efective enough to be used in hard mode or in place of a nuker. If the rechage was more in the 15 second ball park in pve it might be worthy of using more often. What if they made illionary weponry a aoe skill? As it stands it dose half the damage that most melle builds put out only redeaming factor is its guarented to aftect the target. If it aftected mutilple targets it might be workabout in pve but then your opening the door to abuse by devishes and rangers with volly being a non elite aoe atck skill and the scythes 3 hit per atack maximum wich would work like a mega splinter wepon. For insperation to be efective they are going to have to ratchet up those enegy efects to where they would be instant death to opposition in pvp to make them efecitive in hard mode a warrior in pvp that atempted to cast a spell but was interupted and recived a -2 enegy regeneration is not doing anything with energy for a while but a moster in hm with 10 pips of energy is hardly going to notice it in fact it probibly will not run out of energy before it dies. Many people are not aware of this but the old cry of pain did not get nerfed for its most abuseive use. While it did make a good back up damage skill for roj to work with in fow it was posible to do as mutch as 175 damge from a single application to each target in effect this was posible to do though the use of rank 8 light bringer and by urals hammer. The team that adjusts skills that is working on the mesmer pve upgrade i do not envy as it is sooo easy to make them beyond abusive.

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by Valynn Lionhart on Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:29 pm

Mesmer PvE update preview time! CLICK HERE!

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by Guest on Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:34 pm

Looks good so far see how it all pans out though.

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by Guest on Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:32 am

Exciting. It will certainly make how I play my mesmer more effective. I really like the current AoE armor ignoring Illusion anti-melee skills but if they get improved, all the better.

It looks like a pair of Illusion and Domination Mesmers have a lot more synergy than before too. For example: Shared Burden and Wastrels Worry. Too bad they are on different skill lines and that you don't necessarily want attacks slowed down TOO much for Clumsiness and Wandering Eye. Still not enough synergy.

I don't know if the changes mean a mesmer will be a preferable class to bring on a high end task but I'm glad there is a chance of this in the future. From the looks of the preview, I don't suspect it will be. But if recharge times and damage get buffed high enough... that will be a LOT of armor ignoring AoE damage that shouldn't scatter a mob. Looking forward to it.

I wonder what changes to Paragons are being looked at. I can't say I'm too interested since damage reduction is what I've always looked for my Paragon to do. After looking at the skills when NF was released, I wanted a Paragon built around "Incoming" when that skill was used for damage reduction and other command skills like "Stand your ground". I've never been a physical damage kind of player.

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by SAL on Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:08 pm

scienter wrote:Exciting. It will certainly make how I play my mesmer more effective. I really like the current AoE armor ignoring Illusion anti-melee skills but if they get improved, all the better.
It looks like a pair of Illusion and Domination Mesmers have a lot more synergy than before too. For example: Shared Burden and Wastrels Worry. Too bad they are on different skill lines and that you don't necessarily want attacks slowed down TOO much for Clumsiness and Wandering Eye. Still not enough synergy.
I don't know if the changes mean a mesmer will be a preferable class to bring on a high end task but I'm glad there is a chance of this in the future. From the looks of the preview, I don't suspect it will be. But if recharge times and damage get buffed high enough... that will be a LOT of armor ignoring AoE damage that shouldn't scatter a mob. Looking forward to it.
The Mesmer changes look like they could make it a truly brutal class in PvE. I'm actually thinking they're not going to buff them quite as much as they seem to suggest in the preview, but I'll be looking forward to it anyway. The Mesmer has actually pretty much always been my favorite concept class in the game, and now it looks like they'll be able to use that concept to the potential it should've been used for since the beginning, but couldn't.

scienter wrote:I wonder what changes to Paragons are being looked at. I can't say I'm too interested since damage reduction is what I've always looked for my Paragon to do. After looking at the skills when NF was released, I wanted a Paragon built around "Incoming" when that skill was used for damage reduction and other command skills like "Stand your ground". I've never been a physical damage kind of player.
The Paragon is pretty useless for offense anyway, and always has been. They really need some different PvE options other than Imbagon though. I mean, "Save Yourselves" isn't even a paragon skill in the first place. They need to be able to stand on their own and provide a solid defense for the team without relying on a Warrior title skill, for crying out loud. Suspect

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by Guest on Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:14 am

I've always been irked that Save Yourself is a Warrior skill. If it were that easy, I would not choose to ever play any kind of warrior. But I think it was intentional that defensive paragons are locked into /w. I think it is set up like it is so that Heroes can't provide paragon style defense. That would make stuff in PvE way too easy without playing as a Paragon yourself.

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by Guest on Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:09 pm

I suspect they will change more skills then they have listed but may not change them as mutch as they are listing as for paragon sys thing if heros could run it nobody would party for anymore with real people.

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by SAL on Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:57 pm

scienter wrote:I've always been irked that Save Yourself is a Warrior skill. If it were that easy, I would not choose to ever play any kind of warrior. But I think it was intentional that defensive paragons are locked into /w. I think it is set up like it is so that Heroes can't provide paragon style defense. That would make stuff in PvE way too easy without playing as a Paragon yourself.
I agree that "Save Yourselves" was intended as a title skill so that heros couldn't use it. I disagree that they forsaw the reliance that Paragons would have on this skill for PvE though, or had any intention of locking Paragon's into a /W secondary. The Factions/Nightfall title skills just weren't thought out very well when they were first introduced into the game. A lot of them were sloppy, imbalanced, and sometimes just didn't make a whole lot of sense. They've made a lot of changes and adjustments to those skills since then. But I truly think that "Save Yourselves" was initially intended primarily for use by Warriors rather than Paragons. They just weren't thinking about it enough at the time to realize that since the Warrior can't generate adrenaline as fast as a Paragon, "Save Youselves" is far more useful on a Paragon's bar than a Warrior's.

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by Guest on Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:17 pm

It would be nice to think anybody thought any warrior was capable of running a defensive bar but I don't really see it. I think I can count with one hand the number of times I've seen a Tactics oriented W in all the PUGs I've been in (and I PUGed 7 characters through 3 campaigns and repeated endless missions for kicks). That, BTW, is exactly the number of warriors I have had respect for.

No W wants to play that role. They want to kill stuff and think they are the best at it. I don't see the skill managers looking to upset this balance. They talk about wanting to see Tactics used more and all that but it is just lip service. I think the intention was to make the P into what Warriors refused to play. Hence "Incoming" was changed entirely (though I'm guessing PVP had an influence here) and "SY" replaced the functionality of "Incoming".

I don't think they missed the synergy. They seem to be pretty decent at understanding the interactions between builds. Not perfect but at least competent. And "SY" from the moment I read the skill struck me as being exactly the perfect skill for my defensive P (who was created for that job. I don't play "Imbagon" since I only looked that up a year after I saw that term flying around).

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by SAL on Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:48 pm

scienter wrote:It would be nice to think anybody thought any warrior was capable of running a defensive bar but I don't really see it. I think I can count with one hand the number of times I've seen a Tactics oriented W in all the PUGs I've been in (and I PUGed 7 characters through 3 campaigns and repeated endless missions for kicks). That, BTW, is exactly the number of warriors I have had respect for. No W wants to play that role. They want to kill stuff and think they are the best at it. I don't see the skill managers looking to upset this balance. They talk about wanting to see Tactics used more and all that but it is just lip service. I think the intention was to make the P into what Warriors refused to play. Hence "Incoming" was changed entirely (though I'm guessing PVP had an influence here) and "SY" replaced the functionality of "Incoming".
Tactics still isn't useful enough to be worth investing attribute points into most of the time, in my opinion. I was hoping that the recent update would've helped that, but it really hasn't. The main problem with Tactics skills is that they're all based around blocking physical damage, which just isn't useful enough on its own to justify investing a lot of attribute points on. I've successfully tanked just about every elite area in the game, and my Warrior is actually my second oldest character (at over 4 and a half years old now), so I've got a lot of experience with using the class. I can tell you as a fact that the best tanking option with a Warrior currently is to invest a lot of attribute points into Strength, and then the rest mainly into a defensive secondary profession attribute. The reason Tactics isn't used more in PvE isn't because of the players, it's because of the developers. I'd personally love to use Tactics in PvE, but it's just not going to happen until they actually make that attribute line a lot more useful.

EDIT: Nevermind, Tactics is decent now after all. See my new Warrior build I posted HERE for details on an extremely durable Tactics/Shadow build I use now.

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by SAL on Wed May 26, 2010 10:57 am

So now that the Mesmer change has been put in, what does everyone think of it? (Or maybe I should be asking, are there any PvE Mesmer players still out there besides me and V to even be able to comment on this update? Razz)

For me, it seems like Mesmers are now top tier, to put it simply. The incredible spiking potential of a dual mesmer setup is bordering on the absurd. But I don't think they'll nerf it because of the same reason they won't nerf Ritualists; because they made sure you can't stack a whole team of overpowered mesmer spikers together and have them not conflict with each other.

Let me explain that a little more. The biggest buff they got definitely lies in some spike damage skills in the form of very short-term hexes that are triggered by the enemies' actions. The list of these mainly includes: Ineptitude, Clumsiness, Wandering Eye, and Mistrust. They have some other spiking skills apart from these that are good to throw onto the skillbar too, but you can basically consider these the main backbone of the mesmer's PvE arsenal now. It's risky to give them to multiple mesmers though because of the high possibility of overlapping them on enemies. Casting 2 ineptitudes on an enemy group, for instance, will normally result in only 1 ineptitude triggering, because hexes don't stack and the second cast will simply replace the first one. You could try spacing them out and not casting at the same time, but it still might end up overlapping enough to be problematic.

Because of this, it seems best to only have one or two spike-based mesmers in a team at the most. This reminds me a lot of how it's normally only viable to have one or two offensive Ritualist spirit spammers in a group, for basically the same reason of problematic skill overlap.

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by Valynn Lionhart on Wed May 26, 2010 2:58 pm

I for one am pleased as punch about the updates for mesmer. I've always been drawn to this class a bit, but ended up frustrated with how ineffectual they were in PvE for groups of enemies. It just felt like I was shooting a pea shooter at big monsters and not doing much except dazing them for a bit. Now, my mesmer is up there with the big guns kicking butt and taking names!

Thank you Scott, for the awesome builds!

~V~

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:18 pm

i disagree with the +2% hex duration, WW would be nerfed :/

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:41 pm

WW should have an exception.

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by SAL on Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:36 am

Eh, it's okay, I've ended up liking the recharge bonus they put into Fast Casting better than my idea of hex duration anyway. Smile

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:45 am

Scott, u'r completely right, though many peeps, like my brother, don't see the potential of the mesmer, for some it's just an extra caster or something to fill that last char slot.
I've seen other mesmers do wicked stuff and hope to be able to do such things too one day. A mix of either insiration and illusion or inspiration and domination can become a powerful build, currently I'm working with a copycat build, i use mimicry to copy somebody else's elite and fuel it with signet of illusions to give a nice effect, further i add some blocking, some healing and some energy managers, this is a very powerful build if used correctly(on good elites Very Happy).

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by SAL on Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:22 am

Alias Mordor wrote:Scott, u'r completely right, though many peeps, like my brother, don't see the potential of the mesmer, for some it's just an extra caster or something to fill that last char slot.
I've seen other mesmers do wicked stuff and hope to be able to do such things too one day. A mix of either insiration and illusion or inspiration and domination can become a powerful build, currently I'm working with a copycat build, i use mimicry to copy somebody else's elite and fuel it with signet of illusions to give a nice effect, further i add some blocking, some healing and some energy managers, this is a very powerful build if used correctly(on good elites Very Happy).
Yeah, Mesmers have a lot of PvE flexibility now. Both Illusion and Domination are great attribute lines with a lot of viable Elite skills and build options available to them. And Keystone signet even made a pure Fast Casting based signet build finally viable.

After playing around with the new changes for a while, I can say that the Mesmer truly feels like the "Glass Cannon" class of the game now. Their new short term hex spike builds in particular can dish out a ton of area damage very quickly and consistently, easily surpassing even Elementalist and Necromancer builds in general offensive ability. Since Domination and Illusion incorporate their own energy recovery spells now though, it's hard to justify spending attribute points in Inspiration Magic, especially since you want as many points pumped into the newly buffed Fast Casting as you can possibly get. The result is the loss of what little defensive options they had, giving them less defense than Elementalist and Necromancer builds, and making Mesmers more fragile than they've ever been before.

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:13 pm

yup, mesms are and will always be fragile, that's why they're team players, others need to take the damage so they can do what they have to, VoR in a bottle's neck is soopacool, that's when the foes are packed together in a small passage, it makes it look like the damage is on the same foe and like he'll die in a moment Very Happy

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:17 pm

nice GW2 pic btw, Logan(Human), Rithlock(Charr), Aer(Norn), Sojja(Asura) and Caithe(Sylvari). Razz

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Re: Mesmer PvE changes

Post by SAL on Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:46 am

Alias Mordor wrote:yup, mesms are and will always be fragile, that's why they're team players, others need to take the damage so they can do what they have to, VoR in a bottle's neck is soopacool, that's when the foes are packed together in a small passage, it makes it look like the damage is on the same foe and like he'll die in a moment Very Happy
Yeah, although the recent buff to Energy Surge has finally brought it up to par with VoR. In testing, I've found it to be very comparable in damage, and it's hard to say which is actually better. I personally prefer Energy Surge now though (even though I would never touch it before), mainly due to it having a faster recharge and lower energy cost than VoR.
Of course, the ludicrous Ineptitude puts every Domination elite to shame now... but it's about time Illusion got something they could use in PvE other than gimmicky Signet of Illusion builds.

And thanks for the comment about my signature. You can also click it to go to the GW2 site. Smile

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