a bit about my believes

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:48 pm

if you have time for a little philosophy or if you're bored, read the message and make a trip through an idea, a thought

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by SAL on Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:41 am

I'm interested in reading it, but the link is blocked at my work. Sad

Would it be easy to copy and paste any of it here?

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Valynn Lionhart on Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:21 am

I read it, Alias. I'm curious as to how you came about your beliefs about these gods and in general. I'm not sure I've ever heard this position before.

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:04 pm

erm, would like to copy it Scott, but though my intentions aren't, some things in it might be offending to certain people, so unless i get the permission to from V and all offies, i won't do it, srry. I like the guild to much to risk getting kicked for (possible) offending posts.

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Valynn Lionhart on Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:38 pm

Scott is a leader. It's okay to do what he says. We wouldn't kick you for something he said was okay. Smile

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Guest on Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:26 am

Valaya and Tlezoc are what some call gods, but they are unlike those, it is to my believe that the earth, the universe and the whole party came to be by the big bang, and that Valaya and Tlezoc came to us afterwards. Also, neither have emotions and follow their own incomprehensible "plan" and will not hesitate to kill persons for it, we don't approve killing, but to them it's something they've done countless times. And if you die, I think you go to the place you think you go to if you die, if you're chistian, you go to heaven, if you think all ends, you go to the eternal blackness where you don't feel, taste, smell or hear anything, no offence, but that seems a grim thought, personally, I think my conscience goes into an eternal dream-status, an eternal paradise. I don't grieve for a dead relative, as to me death is as natural as breathing and eating and birth. Death doesn't always have to be unpleasant though, I think dying of old age in a warm bed seems like a good death, though I am under no illusion that there aren't terrible deaths, on the contrary, a person in horrible pain dying is a horrible sight to behold for many of us.

I also believe in the concept of 2, all beings, alive and dead, material and immaterial came in pairs, like light and dark, solid and plasma, liquid and gas, time and space, neither can exist without the other, and that Tlezoc And Valaya represent those, both however have "sides" we see as either good or bad.

I have no personal feeling for good and bad, I know cruelty, atrocity and horror and I don't approve them, but according to me those are visions grown by your education, your life, your surroundings and your culture, like a rabit, one may say: "cute, lovely pet", while another says: "a nice stew": the first thinks the second to be cruel, the second thinks the first to be soft on the subject, it's a matter of a lifetime and can be changed by the smallest of things, a new friend, a deceased relative, ...
I see everything in life as an experience, there to learn from, though sometimes, a second try is less than appreciated.

I have no intention of forcing anyone into this believe, and I am more than happy if you, and not someone for you, accept either the believe in Valaya and Tlezoc, or the vision of life and death, the choice is yours, neither, one of them or both. A difficult crossroad lies here, at least, for those who ponder deeply on this, if you don't think this is worth it, let it be, my intentions are all but intriguing or offending.

no offence is meant to anyone.(this wasn't in the text ) Rolling Eyes I know there are quite some "I"'s in here, but i'm the only follower of Valaya and Tlezoc, so...

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by SAL on Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:23 am

Thanks for posting that, Alias. I think it's an interesting view. I have a few comments/questions about it, that I've listed below.


Alias Mordor wrote:Valaya and Tlezoc are what some call gods, but they are unlike those, it is to my believe that the earth, the universe and the whole party came to be by the big bang, and that Valaya and Tlezoc came to us afterwards.
I'm just curious, where do the names Valaya and Tlezoc come from? Are those just the names you've given them, or do they come from some already existing religious view? They sound kind of aztec or something.

And if you die, I think you go to the place you think you go to if you die, if you're chistian, you go to heaven, if you think all ends, you go to the eternal blackness where you don't feel, taste, smell or hear anything, no offence, but that seems a grim thought, personally, I think my conscience goes into an eternal dream-status, an eternal paradise. I don't grieve for a dead relative, as to me death is as natural as breathing and eating and birth. Death doesn't always have to be unpleasant though, I think dying of old age in a warm bed seems like a good death, though I am under no illusion that there aren't terrible deaths, on the contrary, a person in horrible pain dying is a horrible sight to behold for many of us.
What happens if I firmly believe that when I die I'll go to the current day Earth, in the current form I have now, with all of my memories completely intact?

I also believe in the concept of 2, all beings, alive and dead, material and immaterial came in pairs, like light and dark, solid and plasma, liquid and gas, time and space, neither can exist without the other, and that Tlezoc And Valaya represent those, both however have "sides" we see as either good or bad.
This sounds a lot like the Asian concept of yin and yang.

I have no personal feeling for good and bad, I know cruelty, atrocity and horror and I don't approve them, but according to me those are visions grown by your education, your life, your surroundings and your culture, like a rabit, one may say: "cute, lovely pet", while another says: "a nice stew": the first thinks the second to be cruel, the second thinks the first to be soft on the subject, it's a matter of a lifetime and can be changed by the smallest of things, a new friend, a deceased relative, ... I see everything in life as an experience, there to learn from, though sometimes, a second try is less than appreciated.
So is this implying that morality/value is subjective? Or is only our perception of it subjective, and there is actually an objective truth to what's good or bad? Or is it saying that there isn't really any true good or bad at all, and that it's all just a subjective label that people have chosen to apply to the world?

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Guest on Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:34 am

The name Tlezoc is indeed inspired by aztecs, but he hasn't got anything to do with them. I heard Valaya somewhere and found it a pretty name, but we call gods as we wish, the christian god doesn't even have a name Razz

I think you'll be in a dream-state forever and live on there, if you have a good life, this sounds good Smile

ya, but Asian monks talk about spiritual enlightment, i don't Smile

there isn't a true good or bad Smile according to me, all go to eternal paradise, honest pple and criminals alike, though criminals will have to suffer all punishments put on them on earth, which are heavier than those of an honest person, so i don't approve crimes.


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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by SAL on Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:02 pm

Alias Mordor wrote:I think you'll be in a dream-state forever and live on there, if you have a good life, this sounds good Smile
there isn't a true good or bad Smile according to me, all go to eternal paradise, honest pple and criminals alike, though criminals will have to suffer all punishments put on them on earth, which are heavier than those of an honest person, so i don't approve crimes.
Okay, so what I'm thinking from this is that you don't really go to the place you think you'll go to when you die, but you'll merely think you're there. If I firmly believe that I'll go to Mars when I die, then when I die my consciuousness will believe it's on Mars. But it's really just an illusion, and in reality I'm actually in this eternal paradise that you mention. Does that sound accurate?

I'm also wondering about this "punishments put on them on earth" part. If someone commits crimes or bad/evil/immoral acts, and they never get punished for it on Earth (let's say they murder someone, and then never get caught for it), then they basically don't have to pay any other price for it? And also, in this case, can their actions truly be considered "wrong", and if so then by what standard are we using to say that they're wrong/evil/immoral?

What I'm really asking here is whether or not terms like "good" and "evil" have any real legitimate grounding to them at all.

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Guest on Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:14 am

well, murder isn't punished completely because it's imoral, most of it is because you make the familymembers go on without the person, and if you never get caught, you always have the fear that they will. And guilt often drives people into turning themselves in. And your eternal paradise is whatever you wish it to be, your very own world with copies of those you wish in it, the copies' minds based on all your memories.

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Guest on Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:18 am

lol, only 3 pple discussing this, time to involve some other interested persons? Very Happy

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Guest on Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:10 am

Alias Mordor wrote:lol, only 3 pple discussing this, time to involve some other interested persons? Very Happy
I'm sure a lot of people, like me, are reading this "from afar". Scott has been doing a really good job keeping this topic "healthy". Having more people participate in it can spark "unhealthy" discussions.

All I can honestly say is that you should consider yourself lucky that this guild is open-minded and is willing to discuss "a bit about your beliefs". Wink

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by AxelofMetropolis on Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:20 am

I agree with Dark. I've been reading, but I'm bad at discussing topics like this and keeping it "healthy" so I'm gonna stay out and just read Smile
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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Guest on Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:51 pm

I know I'm lucky to be here Very Happy I love this guild, I've never been with nicer people, I love u, moon Smile

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by SAL on Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:53 am

Alias Mordor wrote:well, murder isn't punished completely because it's imoral, most of it is because you make the familymembers go on without the person, and if you never get caught, you always have the fear that they will. And guilt often drives people into turning themselves in. And your eternal paradise is whatever you wish it to be, your very own world with copies of those you wish in it, the copies' minds based on all your memories.
So does this mean the "eternal paradise" that you'll go to after your death is determined more by your subconscious rather than your conscious wishes about it? And if so, could it actually end up have negative aspects to it?

Like in the example you use there, could the person be feeling guilt or emotional torment in their afterlife?

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by SAL on Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:02 pm

Dark Marluxia XIII wrote:I'm sure a lot of people, like me, are reading this "from afar". Scott has been doing a really good job keeping this topic "healthy". Having more people participate in it can spark "unhealthy" discussions.
I have a philosophy degree, and have also taken many religion courses in school. So I'm pretty used to discussing things in this way, and generally enjoy it. I don't think differing viewpoints have to lead to any hostility, or even an argument. And although I think Alias' view is somewhat unusual, and very different from my own personal perspective (which falls under Christianity), I actually think it's a lot less bizarre than a lot of fairly well established religious/spiritual views out there these days, like Scientology, Wicca, or most New Age beliefs, just to name a few. But even if anyone's interested in talking about those, I'll still do it with a logical, respectful, and non-hostile approach. Smile


Last edited by Arcana on Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:52 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Valynn Lionhart on Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:10 pm

I think that if I want to be able to say things, then I need to let others be able to say things. This is why I don't mind discussions like this that stay respectful and keep hostility out.

Even if I don't agree with someone, if I have the right to free speech, then so do they. I don't think anyone shouldn't be able to talk about what they think. The only governor I ask for free speech is that people remember to use tact and respect. "Speak the Truth in Love" is what I govern myself by. Smile

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:22 pm

I think it's okay to swear as long as it isn't pointed to someone, if you die in a miss right in front of a good drop for example.
yep, I sure hate those situations. Evil or Very Mad
Or if you're in front of a big, strong foe like dhuum or the lich or something Razz
pple tend to say the "f" word then ,and sometimes like to let pple know Smile
Or if you'r down, then i'm ok with any swearing, because i know how it feels like in those moments, i've had my share. (but life goes on and gw always cheers me up Very Happy)

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:01 pm

There is one thing I find odd about this. Say one person thinks he’s evil because he stole a cookie when he was two, and led a perfect life afterwards, thought that they would go to Hell when they died. Say another person who killed people and led a terrible life, but somehow thought he was doing good, thought he would go to Heaven when he die. So the person who stole the cookie would be eternally tortured because he thought himself evil, and the person who killed people would be happy forever because he thought he was doing good? That just seems wrong to me. I know this is an overemphasized way of putting it, but you get what I mean. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:56 pm

Guilt is a powerful feeling we give ourselves to tell right from wrong based on our education. Although I don't believe in heaven and hell, I don't think the killer would be allowed in heaven, and i'm sure the thief returned a cookie, maybe two, and appologised.

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Valynn Lionhart on Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:01 am

What I was talking about above wasn't really about swear words. I was thinking more along the lines of people sharing their religious views, politics, etc. Razz

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:14 am

Scott, about eternal paradise, there ur conscience and subconscience are the same there, your eternal paradise is what you want it to be, and if you feel bad, that doesn't affect it unless you want it, and i don't think torment is wanted by anyone :/

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by SAL on Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:54 pm

Alias Mordor wrote:Scott, about eternal paradise, there ur conscience and subconscience are the same there, your eternal paradise is what you want it to be, and if you feel bad, that doesn't affect it unless you want it, and i don't think torment is wanted by anyone :/
So if I've got this straight, then it will basically just be whatever you want it to be, but it will really only be an illusion... sort of like being in the matrix, but where it adapts to seem like whatever you want it to be.

So while you're in this eternal paradise, will you know everything about it, like that it may not actually be real? Or are you fooled into thinking it's completely real, like being in the matrix or having a dream?

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Re: a bit about my believes

Post by Guest on Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:57 am

you know everything about it because it is everything you want it to be, and wether it's real or not, you're stuck in it and there's no way out, but as everything can change, you'll probably never ever get bored, you can be wanting massive medieval battles because of the thrill, or a quiet life in the mountains, as will be as you wish it, whenever you wish it.

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